loose no double unit armies?

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loose no double unit armies?

Post  TheBigMekk on Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:55 am

Have you guys ever wanted to sit down and play a game of 40k without unit spam lists. like for instance, where an Ork player will only have one battlewagon, one nod squad, one boy mob, one loot mob, one killa kan squadron, and so on... I fell like it would brake up the mono list writing and force more tactical thinking in game. just had the thought and looking for feed back. bounce
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Re: loose no double unit armies?

Post  Brooks on Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:29 pm

Yes, it would be great! But some units need to be taken more than once, or even many times, to accurately reflect a fluff-based army of that faction.

One one side, Tau NEED to take multiple Fire Warrior Squads or Kroot Kindreds to make any sense and have any chance to claim objectives, and a fluff Imperial Guard Infantry Company should have three or four platoons. Necrons are required to take at least two Warrior Squads, and should take more. The Force Organization Chart is perfectly capable of supporting (actually, I think it was designed around) a Space Marine Battle Company following the Codex Astartes
Captain+Command Squad
Chaplain or Librarian
Techmarine
Dreadnought
6x Tactical Squads w/ Rhinos or Razorbacks
2x Assault Squads or Bike Squads or Land Speeder Squadrons
2x Devastator Squads w/ Rhinos or Razorbacks
with an Elite, FA, and HS choice left over for support from the 1st Company or the Armoury.

On the other side the newer Blood Angels and Grey Knights lists commonly field more Sanguinary Guard, Purifiers, or Paladins than there are in the entire chapter. Hardly anyone ever fields standard Guard Platoons anymore, Veterans in Chimaeras or Vendettas are universal. Nob Bikers are ridiculous (can they be Troops?), and the FOC does not scale up or down with point values and unit sizes of different armies. A large points game that uses only one detachment really hinders the Tau, because, they just don't hve the FOC slots to field enough Troops, while the Guard used to suck in small games because they had to take two oversized Troops choices.

Vehicle Squadrons and characters that make units Troops, although they add a lot of flexibility to field different armies, make this problem worse.

I definitely agree about the power spamming.

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Re: loose no double unit armies?

Post  kyle on Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:39 pm

I think we should try a game were there is only a limit on non troops units that would help armies that have limited troops choices such as the tau who only have 2 types of troops and i also feel the eldar would be kinda funny to play that list as
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Re: loose no double unit armies?

Post  TheBigMekk on Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:10 am

the reason i bring this up barring the armies that need to for simply fluff and force organization reasons, is because i'm getting tired of seeing unit spam lists. granted i am guilty of power writing and units spamming, but at least i mix up the weapons and unit options most of the time. in addition i think it would help bring some balance to the older army books witch in my option have some better unit diversity and less single power units.

like:
- eldar (who have, aspect warriors of all kinds who never see the table any more)
- dark eldar (can have nasty lists but need to spam two to three units to do so.)
- blood angels (can play any vanilla marine unit, but who cares when i have 5 scoring assault squads)
- guard (less so guilty simply because of how the army works, but still thirsting for old flavor)
- grey knight (whom you will only ever see in terminator Armour! or with a power to kill a horde in one swift middle finger!)
- space wolves (with 15 long fangs and 4 rune priest at all times)

Crying or Very sad
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Re: loose no double unit armies?

Post  Brooks on Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:26 am

The biggest problem isn't so much the ability to take multiple of a unit, it's that many armies have abilities or characters that allow them to take units as different Force Organization Chart selections, or even have units written into the slots standard.

Examples:
- Space Wolf double-HQ slots. Wolf Guard already given them the option to field whole units of mini-characters, they don't really need even more individuals. You could easily field more Special Characters than standard units.

- Blood Angels Elite Chaplains. A chapter never known for their overwhelming piety can now field better Chaplains, and/or field more of them without taking up HQ slots.

- Blood Angel Sanguinary Priests. Although Apothecaries, they are more effective than Chaplains for half the price, do not take up HQ slots, may join any units, and rarely even restrict your other Elite choices, since you can take three for one slot.

- Blood Angel Librarian Dreadnoughts. A chapter never known for their psychic potential, only they can inter Librarians into Dreadnoughts, retaining all the usual psychic powers, including psychic flight. As an Elites choice, again allowing you to dodge the HQ slot limitation.

- Blood Angel Standard Dreadnoughts. A chapter never known for its reliance on slow war machines, they can be taken as Heavy Support. This frees up the Elites section to take units that should be in the HQ section, allowing them to chain-along their FoC slot shifts.

- Blood Angel Baal Predators. Taking the FoC chain one link further, powerful main battle tanks are moved into the Fast Attack section, opening up room in HS for units from Elites for units from HQ.

- Blood Angels Assault Marines. Moving the valuable FA units into Troops, continuing the theme of FoC shifts. Self-Explanatory, this one is at least fluff-supported, if poorly implemented.

- Blood Angels Land Raiders. A chapter never known for their reliance on ground-bound armored vehicles, their Land Raiders can be taken as dedicated transports, they circumvent the FoC altogether, despite their status as the most powerful vehicle in the game.

The Blood Angels example above is the most grievous abuse of the FoC, as you can take an army of characters by shuffling each category's units into the next.

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Re: loose no double unit armies?

Post  TheBigMekk on Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:09 pm

but take note that if you forced a Blood Angels player to use at least one tactical squad, one Elite infantry (sange guard or van-vets, or stern-vets), that alone forces about 400 points of unseen unused blood angels to hit the board. All of which can be used to great effect as shown by other marine armies.

Note: the force org problems noted before are simply why the blood angels are broken in the first place. so that to me isn't why we don't see mixed listed. it's why the blood angels are in nearly every way equal too or greater that the basic marine book.

strangely enough if you take away the assault marines ability to buy melta-guns for 10 points altogether, they stop looking so good as troops. try and tell me other wise.
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Re: loose no double unit armies?

Post  Admin on Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:45 pm

What if they took a 90 point 5-man Tactical Squad, and a 125 point 5-man Sternguard Squad. That's 215 points.

Sure you could say they have to be taken at full-strength, but that's still only 405 points, and this causes other problems.

The whole point of Elites is that they're supposed to be rare. Requiring their use kind of defeats the purpose. If you apply this example to other armies (including the caveat about full-strength above) you get:

*(Full-strength only implies base models, not upgrades, add-on models like commissars, or transports)

Space Wolves MUST take a Grey Hunter Squad and a Wolf Guard Squad (20 models and 330 points)

Black Templars MUST take a Crusader Squad and a Sword Brethren Squad (30 models and 430 points)

Dark Angels MUST take a Tactical Squad and a Veteran Squad (20 models and 350 points)

Space Marines MUST take a Tactical Squad and a Sternguard Squad (20 models and 405 points)

Imperial Guard MUST take an Infantry Platoon and a Stormtrooper Squad (157 models and 1015 points)


Craftworld Eldar MUST take a Guardian Squad and a Howling Banshee Squad (30 models and 300-some points)

Tyranids MUST take a Hormagaunt Brood and a Warrior Brood (39 models and 500-some points)

Orks MUST take a Boyz Mob and a Nobz Mob (40 models and 450-some points)

Chaos Marines MUST take a Chaos Marine Squad and a Chosen Squad (30 models and 480 points)

Necrons MUST take a unit of Necron Warriors and a unit of Treyarch Praetorians (30 models and 450+ points)

The Imperial Guard example is especially telling on the differences between army lists. You cannot fix the problem by changing the core rules, you have to change each army's rules, because each army works differently.

Compare the examples of the various Space Marine chapters under this rule to the non-Marine codexes:
-All the Space Marine examples except the Black Templars can still fit their required units into either ground-bound transports or drop pods, and so maintain the theme of armies based around those concepts.
-Other than a Ravenwing-Deathwing or Scout-based army list, the Troops choice is already required of them, while the Elites choice was probably going to be included anyway.
-The Tactical Squads receive their upgrade weapons free or discounted, and the Sternguard Squads do not need upgrades to be very effective. Only the Sword Brethren Wolf Guard, and Dark Angels Veterans rely on multiple upgrades.

Now look at the non-Marine codexes, taking the basic trooper FoC slot and the most "standard" Elite slot for each army:
-None of them can fit into transport vehicles, or except through careful Necron planning, deploy entirely by deep strike.
-Many units now required are not commonly taken, at least in the sizes required. Ex: Infantry Platoon, Infantry Squad, Conscript Platoon, Stormtrooper Squad, Guardian Squad, Hormagaunt Brood, Chaos Marine Squad, Treyarch Praetorians?
- The Infantry Platoon needs numerous upgrades to be effective, as do the Nobz, Chosen, Boyz, Warriors, and Guardians.
-With the exception of the Eldar, all have a higher point cost than the Space Marine examples.

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